Pug 407 - where to start?

[Mark R Penn]

I've got a Peugeot 407SW with the JBL system (with subwoofer in the boot
wall), but I'm a little disappointed with it. There is loads of base and
power, but the sound overall sounds a bit flat and harsh to me - certainly
not a rich, high quality sound.

Trouble is, I'm not sure where to start with any upgrades. Any advise about
where to look first would be appreciated - will upgrading speakers be
pointless without a better head end? Is the quality of the sub woofer likely
to be suspect? etc etc etc.

Vague I know, but even a pointer to who could help would be apreciated.

Thanks,

Mark

[Glenn Richards]

Post by Mark R Penn
I've got a Peugeot 407SW with the JBL system (with subwoofer in the
boot wall), but I'm a little disappointed with it. There is loads of
base and power, but the sound overall sounds a bit flat and harsh to
me - certainly not a rich, high quality sound.

Even "premium" brand vehicles normally have a fairly average sound
system. My Audi A4's factory head unit sounded OK, but that was it...
just... OK. And this is a 2003 top of the line car. Factory head unit
was Audi Chorus (made by Blaupunkt) radio/cassette with offboard
changer, previous A4 had the Concert radio/CD.

The optional Bose upgrade does improve things a little, but it still
sounds a bit tizzy at the top end. If anything having the premium sound
option shows up the shortcomings in the head unit.

My first instinct would be to rip out the factory head unit and replace
it with something decent, personally I like Sony kit, but a lot of
people on here rate Alpine very highly. All I'll say is in my previous
car (2001 A4), changing the factory unit for a Sony MDX-CA580 (sadly no
longer available) gave a quantum leap in sound quality on FM even before
adding any off-board amplification. Similarly in the current car
changing it for the Sony MEX-1HD gave a dramatic improvement. Adding an
offboard amp (Sony XM-4060) for the front speakers (rears are amplified
on Audi as standard) gave another improvement, and finally adding a pair
of 10" JBL bass bins into the boot was just the icing on the cake. ;-)
It actually sounds a lot better than the Bose system.

Anyway, have a look at something from Sony at around the £150 mark, this
should give you front/rear line outs and the ability to use a remote,
probably MP3 playback as well.

Hope that's of some help.

[Tim S Kemp]

Post by Glenn Richards
My first instinct would be to rip out the factory head unit and
replace it with something decent,

Make sure it's compatible with any out board amplification - as the system
has a sub it may not be straightforward. I'd go with an Alpine if you're
using on board amps. Blaupunkts are good but the built in amps are weedy.

Some manufacturers have got premium audio right - Lexus, Rover (the 75 with
the Alpine / Harman system was great), Volvo (Dynaudio speakers, also done
the new Passat).

[Glenn Richards]

Post by Tim S Kemp

Post by Glenn Richards
My first instinct would be to rip out the factory head unit and
replace it with something decent,

Make sure it's compatible with any out board amplification - as the
system has a sub it may not be straightforward.

The stock system in my A4 has a sub, 8" mounted under the rear shelf.
This is powered from the same amp as the rear speakers.

Not quite sure why Audi have that arrangement, surely it would make more
sense to have the front speakers amplified as the sound is a lot better
from an offboard amp.

Only thing to watch with this arrangement though is that the stock head
unit drives the "line" level at 9V RMS (standard line level is 2V RMS).
This gives you 3 options:

1. If you're using the head unit's internal amp to drive the front
speakers, move the fader control towards the rear and increase the volume.

2. If you're using an offboard amp for the front speakers, reduce the
gain on this to match the rears, and again increase the volume.

3. Fit a line driver between the rear pre-outs and the wiring harness
adaptor.

Option 3 is the best solution, as the head unit is then running with a
correctly calibrated volume control. I'm running the rear pre-outs
through a Vibe DeltaBox to boost the line level to 9V RMS.

The recommended method to set this up on a fully amplified system would
be to temporarily connect the front speakers direct to the head unit,
then adjust the gain on the DeltaBox so the front and rear speakers are
the same level. Then connect the front speakers back up to the offboard
amp, and adjust the gain control to match the front/rear levels.

I've actually reduced the level of the rear speakers by around 3dB, as
in the normal driving position you can hear the tweeters in the rear
doors quite clearly, and it sounds a little strange. A 3dB gain
reduction on the rears eliminates this problem without making things
sound weird in the back of the car.

In the past I've actually had a surround processor hooked up to the rear
speakers to get a surround sound effect (similar in concept to playing a
stereo CD through a Pro-Logic decoder). Unfortunately this sounds very
strange to any rear seat passengers. What would be interesting is to use
the pressure sensors under the rear seat (used to determine which airbag
behaviour to use) to switch into normal stereo mode in the rear if
anyone was sitting in the back of the car, otherwise switch the rear
speakers into surround mode.

Post by Tim S Kemp
I'd go with an Alpine if you're using on board amps. Blaupunkts are
good but the built in amps are weedy.

I'm very taken with a lot of Sony's mobile kit (electronics at least),
previously had MDX-CA580, CDX-757 and MDX-66LP (with XA-C30 selector)
running through an XM-4060 amplifier, have now replaced the head unit
and MD/CD changers with a MEX-1HD.

Post by Tim S Kemp
Some manufacturers have got premium audio right - Lexus, Rover (the
75 with the Alpine / Harman system was great), Volvo (Dynaudio
speakers, also done the new Passat).

One thing Audi did get right was the speakers. The front component
speakers in my A3 (1999 T-reg) were fantastic, although the rear co-ax
drivers weren't quite so good (3-door, I believe the 5-door had
components in the rear as well). Both the previous A4 (Y-reg 2001) and
the Quattro I have now (52-plate 2003) have particularly good speakers
fitted in the doors. While I'm sure it's possible to improve on these, I
doubt it would be worth the effort.

What I am considering doing though is replacing the factory speaker
cable with some 105-strand OFC stuff I've got a big roll of, as I'm sure
this will improve things. On my first car (1995 M-reg Fiesta) the
factory speaker cable was little more than bell wire, and upgrading this
made a huge difference.

[Tim S Kemp]

Post by Glenn Richards
The stock system in my A4 has a sub, 8" mounted under the rear shelf.
This is powered from the same amp as the rear speakers.
Not quite sure why Audi have that arrangement, surely it would make
more sense to have the front speakers amplified as the sound is a lot
better from an offboard amp.

Depends how good the onboard amp is... Also it may be allowing them to
bi-amp the front speakers direct from the head unit using the internal 4ch
amp. Sounds very much like the system in the 75 which had an amp in the boot
and and sub under the rear shelf. Pike gits broke into my car through the
rear window though and I ended up with a sub full of glass fragments - took
some sorting...

Post by Glenn Richards
Only thing to watch with this arrangement though is that the stock
head unit drives the "line" level at 9V RMS (standard line level is

Standard line level is 0.775V (0dbu, but you knew that...) - car stereos go
for higher "line" levels either to improve immunity to noise or by tapping
the speaker output before the current stage...

Post by Glenn Richards
I've actually reduced the level of the rear speakers by around 3dB, as
in the normal driving position you can hear the tweeters in the rear
doors quite clearly, and it sounds a little strange. A 3dB gain
reduction on the rears eliminates this problem without making things
sound weird in the back of the car.

I've noticed this in Golfs, when I change the rear speakers in mine they'll
be coax so the tweeters will be down the bottom of the doors. I'm only
changing the rears out of guilt for anyone who travels in the back of my
car...

Post by Glenn Richards
In the past I've actually had a surround processor hooked up to the
rear speakers to get a surround sound effect (similar in concept to
playing a stereo CD through a Pro-Logic decoder). Unfortunately this
sounds very strange to any rear seat passengers. What would be
interesting is to use the pressure sensors under the rear seat (used
to determine which airbag behaviour to use) to switch into normal
stereo mode in the rear if anyone was sitting in the back of the car,
otherwise switch the rear
speakers into surround mode.

Volvos have a surround mode button on the head unit - but then they have the
rear effects speakers in the rear shelf and the rear door speakers are
"front" for the purposes of surround.

Post by Glenn Richards
One thing Audi did get right was the speakers. The front component
speakers in my A3 (1999 T-reg) were fantastic, although the rear co-ax
drivers weren't quite so good (3-door, I believe the 5-door had
components in the rear as well). Both the previous A4 (Y-reg 2001) and
the Quattro I have now (52-plate 2003) have particularly good speakers
fitted in the doors. While I'm sure it's possible to improve on
these, I doubt it would be worth the effort.
What I am considering doing though is replacing the factory speaker
cable with some 105-strand OFC stuff I've got a big roll of, as I'm
sure this will improve things. On my first car (1995 M-reg Fiesta) the
factory speaker cable was little more than bell wire, and upgrading
this made a huge difference.

I'm highpassing the main speakers anyway so the current draw to them is
reduced by a lot...

[Tim..]

Post by Glenn Richards

Post by Tim S Kemp

Post by Glenn Richards
My first instinct would be to rip out the factory head unit and
replace it with something decent,

Make sure it's compatible with any out board amplification - as the
system has a sub it may not be straightforward.

The stock system in my A4 has a sub, 8" mounted under the rear shelf.
This is powered from the same amp as the rear speakers.
Not quite sure why Audi have that arrangement, surely it would make more
sense to have the front speakers amplified as the sound is a lot better
from an offboard amp.
Only thing to watch with this arrangement though is that the stock head
unit drives the "line" level at 9V RMS (standard line level is 2V RMS).

You will find 4v and very recently 6v line outs are becoming the norm on
'proper' kit.

Tim..

[Tim S Kemp]

Post by Tim..

Post by Glenn Richards
Only thing to watch with this arrangement though is that the stock
head unit drives the "line" level at 9V RMS (standard line level is
2V RMS).

You will find 4v and very recently 6v line outs are becoming the norm
on 'proper' kit.

Indeed, the outputs on my Alpine are 4V...

[In-Car Express]

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 21:42:08 GMT, "Mark R Penn"

Post by Mark R Penn
Trouble is, I'm not sure where to start with any upgrades. Any advise about
where to look first would be appreciated - will upgrading speakers be
pointless without a better head end? Is the quality of the sub woofer likely
to be suspect? etc etc etc.

Depending on your budget, it might be worth looking at JL Audio's new
CleanSweep processor. You'd also need to add an additional amp, plus
possibly speakers as well (I'd probably change the fronts first and
assess the system from there), so it's not the cheapest option, but
seems to work extremely well.

http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_cleansweep_pages.php?page_id=79

In effect, this takes a poor quality audio signal from the OEM head
unit, measures and equalises it, and then sends it back out as a high
voltage preout which you can connect to aftermarket amplification. The
advantage to this is that you'd then be able to uprate power,
speakers, etc, but keep a stock looking interior and retain the
existing remote display. The only minor downpoint is that it has it's
own volume control - so although your steering remote volume will
still work, it's preferable preset the radio volume and to use the one
on the EQ.

Jon

[Mark R Penn]

Thanks everyone. Unfortunately I don't think changing the head unit is an
option, not just because of the looks, but because it also carries the AC,
car function (e.g. auto lights etc) and trip computer controls. Not just the
buttons on the front panel either - the electronics are all within the
Blaupunct head.

Looks like the CleanSweep processor may be my only option, but I'll need to
check my current configuration first. It does include an external amp, but I
don't know how it's arranged yet.

Cheers,

Mark

Post by In-Car Express
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 21:42:08 GMT, "Mark R Penn"

Post by Mark R Penn
Trouble is, I'm not sure where to start with any upgrades. Any advise about
where to look first would be appreciated - will upgrading speakers be
pointless without a better head end? Is the quality of the sub woofer likely
to be suspect? etc etc etc.

Depending on your budget, it might be worth looking at JL Audio's new
CleanSweep processor. You'd also need to add an additional amp, plus
possibly speakers as well (I'd probably change the fronts first and
assess the system from there), so it's not the cheapest option, but
seems to work extremely well.
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_cleansweep_pages.php?page_id=79
In effect, this takes a poor quality audio signal from the OEM head
unit, measures and equalises it, and then sends it back out as a high
voltage preout which you can connect to aftermarket amplification. The
advantage to this is that you'd then be able to uprate power,
speakers, etc, but keep a stock looking interior and retain the
existing remote display. The only minor downpoint is that it has it's
own volume control - so although your steering remote volume will
still work, it's preferable preset the radio volume and to use the one
on the EQ.
Jon
--
In-Car Express http://www.incarexpress.co.uk
Car Audio | Security | Multimedia | Navigation
Tel. [phone] Fax. [phone]

[Chris M]

--
Remove Elvis's shoes to reply.

Post by In-Car Express
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 21:42:08 GMT, "Mark R Penn"

Post by Mark R Penn
Trouble is, I'm not sure where to start with any upgrades. Any advise about
where to look first would be appreciated - will upgrading speakers be
pointless without a better head end? Is the quality of the sub woofer likely
to be suspect? etc etc etc.

Depending on your budget, it might be worth looking at JL Audio's new
CleanSweep processor. You'd also need to add an additional amp, plus
possibly speakers as well (I'd probably change the fronts first and
assess the system from there), so it's not the cheapest option, but
seems to work extremely well.
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_cleansweep_pages.php?page_id=79
In effect, this takes a poor quality audio signal from the OEM head
unit, measures and equalises it, and then sends it back out as a high
voltage preout which you can connect to aftermarket amplification. The
advantage to this is that you'd then be able to uprate power,
speakers, etc, but keep a stock looking interior and retain the
existing remote display. The only minor downpoint is that it has it's
own volume control - so although your steering remote volume will
still work, it's preferable preset the radio volume and to use the one
on the EQ.

Does that really work?
If you've got a poor quality source, I can't see how any amount of clever
processing can make it better, doesn't the old adage 'Garbage In, Garbage
Out' still hold?

[In-Car Express]

On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:32:40 +0100, "Chris M"

Post by Chris M
Does that really work?
If you've got a poor quality source, I can't see how any amount of clever
processing can make it better, doesn't the old adage 'Garbage In, Garbage
Out' still hold?

Not really - in effect it doesn't take a bad signal in, as it matches
to the head unit output far more effectively than a direct amp
connection, or conventional speaker to RCA adaptor. 50% of the issues
connecting to OEM head units are to do with mismatched signal levels
or grounds. It's never going to be as good as the best aftermarket
head units, but that's largely irrelevant in some newer vehicles where
you literally can't change the head unit without major surgery.

The other thing is that factory head units are becoming more and more
car specific. If for example the OEM speakers can't hack 20w RMS at
30Hz, rather than fit better speakers, the manufacturer will just roll
off the output at that frequency. Which is fine for most people, but a
major nightmare the second you change any system components. The
CleanSweep dynamically measures the head unit output, calculates the
equalisation that's being added by the factory system, and then
applies the same in reverse to give you a flat output.

Jon